Wolke 7

Fraengii

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 12:13:39 +0100 last edited: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 16:38:46 +0100

Bekanntheit, Erfolg, Verbreitung

Neulich war ich kurz davor, einen meiner Webhoster zu bitten, #Hubzilla in den Reigen seiner One-Klick-Applikationen aufzunehmen. Ganz unabhängig davon, wie aussichtsreich mein Anliegen ist, kamen mir allerdings Bedenken: Wenn Hubzilla so leicht zu installieren ist, fällt auch die Schwelle für Verschwörungserzählerinnen und -erzähler, Rassisten, Terroristen und andere Extreme. Und Hubzilla könnte in Verruf kommen.
Ist es so? Und ist es dann im Interesse von Hubzilla, größere Bekanntheit zu erreichen? Welche Schutzmechanismen (technische, soziale) gibt es?

Prominence, success, prevalence

Recently I thaught about asking my web hoster to add #Hubzilla to its one click app pool but I hesitate: If Hubzilla could be installed that easy it may become a platform for conspiracy tellers, racists, terrorists and other extremes. And this could decry Hubzilla.
Would it be like that?
Is it in the interest of Hubzilla to get higher prominence considering this hazard?
What could be mechanisms of protection (technical, social)?
What are you thinking about my worries?
!Hubzilla Support Forum !zotlabs.org | Hubzilla !Hubzilla connected people. Workshop

Einer von Vielen

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 12:57:23 +0100

Deine Frage zielt mehr oder weniger auf Kontrolle der Kommunikation zwischen anders denkenden Menschen. Ob das sinnvoll ist? Ich finde, nein, auf keinen Fall. Das beantworten viele für sich anders, habe ich hier schon oft in Posts und Kommentaren gelesen.

Hmm...?

Alexander Goeres

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 13:53:41 +0100 last edited: Wed, 02 Dec 2020 07:44:43 +0100

verruf .. das wird sich nicht verhindern lassen, sobald eine plattform irgendwie erfolgreicher wird. mit einer gabel kann man essen oder dem tischnachbarn ein auge ausstechen. ich denke aber, dass es bei so kleinteiligen setups wie hubzilla einfacher ist, eventuell ausrastende hubs zu separieren, falls deren admins nicht reagieren wollen.

Fraengii

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 16:23:04 +0100

Zensur kommt für mich auch nicht unbedingt in Frage. 'Nicht unbedingt' bedeutet, dass die unterschiedlichen Meinungsäußerungen für mich die Bereitschaft zum Austausch der Standpunkte, den Wunsch nach konstruktivem Diskurs und die Achtung der Andersdenkenden signalisieren müssen (nicht 'sollten').
Ich kann mir keine Technik vorstellen, die angemessen eine Diskussion moderieren könnte. Es bleibt also das zwischenmenschliche Netz. Wie im richtigen Leben.

Ihr würdet es also begrüßen, wenn IONOS Hubzilla in seine Sammlung an One-Klick-Applikationen aufnehmen würde.

Einer von Vielen

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 16:40:47 +0100

Ihr würdet es also begrüßen, wenn IONOS Hubzilla in seine Sammlung an One-Klick-Applikationen aufnehmen würde.

Definitiv, ja.

Alexander Goeres

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 16:54:19 +0100

so gefragt: ja, das wäre gut

hEARt PhoniX

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 17:34:14 +0100

Ja, das wäre cool.
Aber: wie läßt sich das Thema addons und updates regeln? Einfach mal installieren ist ja ok, aber es muß auch maintainbar sein.
Das läßt sich ja nicht aus dem grafischen Interface machen. Da gab es mal eine Diskussion, bei der Mike den Standpunkt vertrat, das öffnet zu viele Angriffsflächen (unter denen zB Wordpress leidet).
Selbst wenn das als Addon gelöst würde für solche Fälle, sind wir wieder bei der Frage: Wie kommen die Addons ins System?

Ich kenne die Technik nicht, die dahinter steckt. Vl. sind meine Fragen ja überflüssig?
Ich erinnere mich, daß es genau diese Fragestellungen bereits bei anderen OneClick-und-da Angeboten gab. Und letztendlich sind da einige die Hubzilla an sich cool fanden wieder weg gewechselt, weil ein eigener Server nicht in Frage kam, mit CLI-Zugriff etc.

hEARt PhoniX

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 17:44:52 +0100

Und nach diesen Geschehnissen hat selbst Mike wenn ich ihn richtig verstanden habe, Besuch bekommen und stand unter Beobachtung.

https://warisboring.com/free-speech-gets-tricky-when-isis-shows-up/

Fraengii

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 17:46:03 +0100 last edited: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 17:46:31 +0100

Ich habe einen kleinen Hosting-Vertrag, bei dem aber schon SSH dabei ist. Komischerweise habe ich keine Hubzilla-Instanz zum Laufen gebracht – da kam mir die Idee, bei IONOS mal anzufragen.

Die Addons kann man doch über /admin/addons installieren.

Einer von Vielen

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 19:15:43 +0100

Aber: wie läßt sich das Thema addons und updates regeln?

Aus https://codeberg.org/zot/misty/src/branch/dev/.homeinstall kann man einige Funktionen für ein Script übernehmen.

Beispiel: Wenn man einen ZAP-Server mit diesem Skript installiert, wird automatisch ein Cron-Job eingerichtet, der täglich ein Script ausführt. Das macht dann:

Backup DB und Dateien

Update core and addons von git

Update Linux update & dist-upgrade & autoremove

Einer von Vielen

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 19:32:27 +0100

I installed every Hub (Zap-Server) in the last couple of years using https://codeberg.org/zot/misty/src/branch/dev/.homeinstall , examples are the subdomains of digitalesparadies.de (both Misty) or ein-hub-von-vielen.de (Hubzilla). Some Hubs I abondonded for fresh installation or to try out ZAP for example.

It runs and runs months without the need to do something for the admin (me). Only it it comes to updates like Hubzilla 4 > 5 I had to manually execute some lines in the shell.

Max Kostikov

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 19:43:39 +0100 last edited: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 21:18:24 +0100

If Hubzilla could be installed that easy it may become a platform for conspiracy tellers, racists, terrorists and other extremes

This is the price for freedom of speech and open source software principles. If you stand for it, be prepared to pay.
But this is doesn't means you should read or, even more, support such manifestations.

Fraengii

Tue, 01 Dec 2020 21:06:35 +0100

Indeed!

Einer von Vielen

Wed, 02 Dec 2020 09:34:09 +0100

To give an example what a daily script could do to keep the Hub up to date.

letsencrpyt

        certbot renew --noninteractive

update core and addons

        (cd /var/www/html/ ; util/udall)

make all accessable for the webserver

        chown -R www-data:www-data /var/www/html/
        chown root:www-data /var/www/html/.htaccess

www-data can read but not write it

        chmod 0644 /var/www/html/.htaccess

updating linux...

        apt-get -q -y update && apt-get -q -y dist-upgrade && apt-get -q -y autoremove # update linux and upgrade

Backup and update finished. Rebooting...

        shutdown -r now

The backup could be done like this

        rsync -a --delete /var/lib/mysql/ /media/hubzilla_backup/mysql
        rsync -a --delete /var/www/ /media/hubzilla_backup/www
        rsync -a --delete /etc/letsencrypt/ /media/hubzilla_backup/letsencrypt

Fraengii

Wed, 02 Dec 2020 09:53:10 +0100

It isn't that easy if you are on a shared host without root or sudo rights.

Einer von Vielen

Wed, 02 Dec 2020 10:36:24 +0100

It isn't that easy if you are on a shared host without root or sudo rights.

I see. I had never used that option and did not know.

The provider IONOS must do the updates, right?

Marshall Sutherland

Wed, 02 Dec 2020 14:52:15 +0100

The printing press was a tool used by all sorts of fringe radicals to spread their dangerous ideas.

Fraengii

Thu, 03 Dec 2020 08:34:33 +0100 last edited: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 08:34:54 +0100

You killed my doubts, @Marshall Sutherland.

Stuart Croall

Fri, 04 Dec 2020 19:21:56 +0100

It's also probably naive to imagine that the technical challenges of installing Hubzilla would be a meaningful barrier to racists, terrorists, white supremists, and others. Every dangerous group with any sense has likely recruited a tech support person ;)

Stefan Holzhauer

Sun, 06 Dec 2020 10:51:23 +0100

And the other way around: It also prevents lots and lots of desirable people from using the Fediverse.

seb

Tue, 08 Dec 2020 20:15:59 +0100

And I made it rather easy to install for anyone with a little bit of docker knowledge too : https://hub.docker.com/r/sebt3/hubzilla

Stuart Croall

Tue, 08 Dec 2020 23:14:07 +0100

Thanks @seb ! I'll have to acquire a little docker knowledge, but it might be useful some day.

seb

Thu, 10 Dec 2020 17:43:36 +0100

@Stuart Croall feel free to ping me if you please. I might not reply instantly (depending on my schedule), but I'll help

ECT

Sun, 13 Dec 2020 15:14:50 +0100

@Fraengii nobody is forced to read posts about conspiracy theories. Where is the danger? It is more dangerous, if people act without thinking. The problem right now is that politicians, scientists and journalists are doing just that. Listen to your heart and everything is all right.

Fraengii

Sun, 13 Dec 2020 23:30:02 +0100 last edited: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 07:38:22 +0100

Shure, @ECT, but I'm not worried about myself. I'm worrying about that those people use Hubzilla for their conspiracy gatherings, misuse it for to strengthen one another in their absurd believes and discredit Hubzilla.
But as @Marshall Sutherland said here this danger exist for all media and to keep Hubzilla away from the big public prevents the "desirable people" from using it as @Stefan Holzhauer said here.

Stefan Holzhauer

Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:47:03 +0100

Another way to discourage people to use or advocate for Hubzilla is to block them from this forum without any reasons or reasons given like in my case.

Sophie

Mon, 14 Dec 2020 10:09:20 +0100

@Stefan Holzhauer

block them from this forum

Why would you think you are blocked from this forum?

Mario Vavti

Mon, 14 Dec 2020 11:06:36 +0100

@Stefan Holzhauer you have not been blocked. You have upgraded to version 5.0 and downgraded again. Downgrades are not supported in Hubzilla. Never have been.

What happened?

When you upgraded to 5.0, other hubs started to upgrade your connection to zot6 aswell. Since you are now on 4.6 again (i assume you have reset your DB to a previous state), your channel is not being recognized as connected anymore by other hubs - hence you are not allowed to comment.

Stefan Holzhauer

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 11:59:25 +0100

@Mario Vavti

So I cannot update, I cannot downgrade, I am basically screwed by the nonworking update to Hubzilla 5.x (yes, I know, "only in my case", as you claim). Personally I find it quite ridiculous that it is not possible to downgrade if something does not work.

Aside from that: after my first try with 5.x shortly after the release, that also did not work, BUT I was able to go back to 4.x and it worked again without any problems. Now it does no longer work?
Posts from and to other networks work fine. So Hubzilla is not compatible with Hubzilla, but with other Fediverse network flavours? Ridiculous.

If you are trying to force me away from Hubzilla, you are actually doing a very good job. You may want to have a look at Misskey to see what a Fediverse platform should look and work like in 2020 at the verge of 2021.

Mario Vavti

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:52:20 +0100 last edited: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:52:46 +0100

@Stefan Holzhauer

So I cannot update, I cannot downgrade, I am basically screwed by the nonworking update to Hubzilla 5.x (yes, I know, "only in my case", as you claim). Personally I find it quite ridiculous that it is not possible to downgrade if something does not work.

5.0 brought a protocol upgrade. Since it's a decentralized system, not only your hub is involved.

Aside from that: after my first try with 5.x shortly after the release, that also did not work, BUT I was able to go back to 4.x and it worked again without any problems. Now it does no longer work?

Other hubs might not have upgraded you yet at that point since, as you stated, your hub was basically dysfunctional after your first upgrade attempt.

Posts from and to other networks work fine. So Hubzilla is not compatible with Hubzilla, but with other Fediverse network flavours? Ridiculous.

Your hub notified other hubs that it upgraded to the zot6 protocol. After the downgrade those hubs were not notified that this was not true anymore.

If you are trying to force me away from Hubzilla, you are actually doing a very good job. You may want to have a look at Misskey to see what a Fediverse platform should look and work like in 2020 at the verge of 2021.

Just trying to answer your questions... Yes, i know Misskey. Not the right tool for me - it might be for you though...

Fraengii

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:19:14 +0100

@Stefan Holzhauer, please believe me: Really no one wants to block you from Hubzilla, absolutely not!
IT is a mystery full of exceptions. I have two hubs running fine with 5, another one on a different webspace (and different provider) dosen't run at all, I even did not reach to install it correctly.
Please tell us something about your environment, the way you installed the hub and we hopefully could help you.

Fraengii

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:31:57 +0100 last edited: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:32:26 +0100

And please consider there is no support team employed by a company which gains money for software and support.
Hubzilla is for free, getting support is for free, giving support is for free.

Fraengii

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:33:12 +0100 last edited: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:37:11 +0100

And for shure sometimes there is also gratuitous frustration.

Stefan Holzhauer

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:22:51 +0100

I opened my own thread about the problems and already gave lots of informations and reports what does and does not work. The only real answer I got was "happens only to you". That is not only not helpful but leads to a lot frustration, especiall if I am asked the same questions over and over again that I already answered in the same thread. In addition I was shut off of help because I could no longer post from my Hub to the support forum, I still can't, I can only post directly on the forum page. I wasted three full days so far (time I do not have and could have used WAY better) trying to update a perfectly fine working 4.x to 5.x without any substantial help besides that answer "only your problem" with the unspoken attitude "not my problem if it does not work for you".

I know that this is an open source endeavour, but with a gamebreaker that completely prevents me from using Hubzilla I would expect a little more help than "you are the only one with this problem". And then there is missing documentation and information, e.g. the update instructions. Compared to other open source projects, Hubzilla is big a mess when it comes to help, documentation and usability. Yes, I probably could and would help with that, but when I see the attitude to users with problems (and I see that for years) I am way too frustrated to contribute to a project where users are not valued but dismissed with "only your problem".

So please no leactures about "gratuitous" frustration. My frustration was well-earned of the last years and fueled to max since the 5.x update.

Stefan Holzhauer

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 14:57:49 +0100

Since it's a decentralized system, not only your hub is involved.

Especially a decentralized system should be downwards compatible at least one major version.

Stefan Holzhauer

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:27:34 +0100

@Mario Vavti

I just again updated to 5.0.x. This worked far besster than before, so it looks to me something was changed in 5.0.5. But I can still not post or comment to the forum from my Hub.

Fraengii

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:31:53 +0100

Misskey seems to be more like mastodon (microblogging). That is absolutely different to Hubzilla, @Stefan Holzhauer.
Did you reach to install a Misskey instance?

Stefan Holzhauer

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:50:40 +0100

I still have to comment here on the forum post directly rather than from my Hub, so this cannot be a 4.x downgrade problem, as Mario Vavti implied.

Aside from that: You can increase post length on Misskey to way more than 500 characters, I did so. You have calendars, files and much, much more. It does the things I want and wanted from Hubzilla. The interface is top notch and modern and does not have that dated Hubzilla look and clumsy feel. It connects to a lot of Fediverse flavors just fine and out of the box. It does not look like a clone of a clone of a clone of a software.

Yes, I was able to install it.

Michal Klodner

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:58:26 +0100

Where can I complain that Mr. Holzhauer hacked one of my channels?

Mario Vavti

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 22:06:56 +0100

@Michal Klodner i am afraid this is a side-effect of the failed clone and empty hubloc_id_url bug.

Stefan Holzhauer

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 22:27:21 +0100

What "failed clone"? I am now running 5.0.5. And it still does not work?

In the update instructions on your site it is clearly stated to "make a backup" before updating. What should this backup be good for if I cannot reinstall it when problems arise? If I cannot reinstall that backup that should be clearly stated and not posted otherwise in the update instructions.

I still have no information on how to resolve the bugs that came with 5.x, and no information about the identity problems, only one word answers that do not help at all. How fucked up is this software if you cannot upgrade, you cannot downgrade and you cannot reinstall the backup as suggested in the update instructions?

Mario Vavti

Wed, 16 Dec 2020 23:06:17 +0100

@Stefan Holzhauer

What "failed clone"? I am now running 5.0.5. And it still does not work?

What i wrote was clearly addressed to @Michal Klodner and an issue he has experienced with cloning channels.

In the update instructions on your site it is clearly stated to "make a backup" before updating. What should this backup be good for if I cannot reinstall it when problems arise?

Basically for the case that the DB upgrade fails for some reason.

I still have no information on how to resolve the bugs that came with 5.x, and no information about the identity problems, only one word answers that do not help at all.

Since i (or other devs so far) could not reproduce the issues you see i am afraid we wont be able to do much without more details. The mess due to the downgrade will not make things easier since the situation it is not predictable anymore.

Michal Klodner

Thu, 17 Dec 2020 01:07:16 +0100

Well, bars are closed people are stucked at home and this SARS-Covid time is a reason to go to internet and @Mario Vavti trombone player in a band had turned to a barman in the crowded underground Hubzilla bar. Everyone shouting on him about his drink and he is amazing delivering the beers and shots.

@Stefan Holzhauer You stole a channel on me by your illegal directory injection operations! We are under attack, he is a terrorist. Sure you can go to Misskey but you did not pay a beer here yet you was served!

I thing the original @Fraengii question was answered. Hubzilla should be complex enough to administer not to be used by ill-minded people. If something does not work, I highly respect the developers, I try to be patient and focus on conditions to identify the issue in my implementation or sometimes in the code. I use dev branch and library versions sometimes pushing things, but if i screw it i do not blame anyone. It was just a fun. For admin beginners there are general valid rules to be conservative and with major version wait to .1 release. Automatic updates are set so. Not .01 or .05 There is also lots of bugs in new releases even in commercial software.

I deleted the channel here, You can keep the identity. Anyway it was just a work channel.

hEARt PhoniX

Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:00:00 +0100 last edited: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 05:08:33 +0100

@Michal Klodner I hope you have downloaded backups of at least your basic channel data. Then you could just upload that file and all connections are still as they were.
/uexport
If not I am sorry ...
But let's take this as an opportunity to advertise this unique Hubzilla feature: you can actually backup and download your own channel data and don't need to rely upon an admin for that.

... Such backups can also be useful before major updates. It can make downgrades and starting over much easier. I'll put it on my toDoList for an FAQ entry.

Fraengii

Thu, 17 Dec 2020 07:07:10 +0100

Thanks, @hEARt PhoniX!

Aksel Kiesling @Hz

Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:10:52 +0100

If a channel can be "stolen", isn' this a huge security issue?!

Mario Vavti

Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:54:39 +0100

@Aksel Kies Linc @Hz there was no channel "stolen". A comment has been falsely attributed due to an anomaly in the dataset at node9.org